Job said, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God. It would certainly make sense that Job would communicate a sense of pain in that the righteous dead are awaiting that which will finally complete them as human persons. For the dead lie there accounting neither days nor years, but when are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute (An Exposition of Solomons Book, Called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1553, folio 151v). What gives? And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Bible The Dead Know Nothing Ecclesiastes 9:3-10 : The Dead Know Nothing Study King James Version | 3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead . The view of death here given, intensely gloomy and hopeless as it appears to be, is in conformity with other passages of the Old Testament (see Job 14:10-14 ; Psalm 6:5 ; Psalm 30:9 ; Isaiah 38:10-19 ; Ecclus. A song writer put it this way: "The dead cannot sing praises to the LORD, for they have gone into the silence of the grave" (Psalm 115:17 NLT). Ecclesiastes 9:5 reads, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.". You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. The word immortal is used only once in the Bible, 1 Timothy 1:17. 3)What about the part that says the sons of the dead man come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he perceives it not? Job is writing at a time, before the advent of Christ, when the dead did not experience the Beatific Vision. What does Jesus say about the dead? "The spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3 KJV). Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. Answer (1 of 20): The Bible says that the dead are conscious of nothing at all. When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. And the living one. Ecclesiastes 7:2 It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart. Verse Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. 173.236.149.92 Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. Luther viewed this as some sort of comatose existence, elsewhere stating: Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realize its sleep, and God preserves the awakening soul. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. By continuing to use this website, you agree to their use. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. Not even King David, a man after God's own heart, was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Most, quoting Scripture scholar Mitchell Joseph Dahood, S.J., responds: The psalmist suffers not because of the inability to remember Yahweh in Sheol [Hell], but from being unable to share in the praise of Yahweh which characterizes Israels worship. Psalm 88:10,11 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole worldhe was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going (verse 10). Cite this page: Editor: Stephen Smith. It was a dim limbo of the fathers, in which they had no means of knowing what transpired on earth, whether their children suffered or prospered [barring a special revelation given by God to the souls in Sheol for a special purpose as we see in the cases of Samuel (I Samuel 28:15), perhaps Rachel (Jeremiah 31:15), certainly Jeremiah and Onias (II Maccabees 15:11-15), and Moses and Elijah on the Mountain of the Transfiguration (Luke 9:30-31)]. A good way to see vividly the difference between the after-life occasioned by the life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ in the New Covenant verses the after-life in the Old Covenant is to note the different ways death is viewed in each Testament. Psalm 31:17. When a person dies, all of his thoughts, knowledge and feelings come to a complete halt. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. The Bible repeatedly compares death to sleep and not conscious existencea sleep from which we must be awakened in a future resurrection (see Daniel 12:2 Daniel 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.American King James Version; Job 14:12-14 Job 14:12-14 [12] So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. ), etc. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. The limbo of the fathers was a shadowy sort of existence that we just do not know everything about. King James Bible For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Performance". As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun" (Eccl. Danny Hickman Supporter Believer in The Gospel Of Jesus Christ "The dead know nothing" means they "know nothing" about the affairs of the living. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. Performance & security by Cloudflare. But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. He comes forth like a flower, and withers; he flees like a shadow, and continues not For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease But man dies, and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? Oh, that thou wouldst hide me in Sheol, that thou wouldst conceal me until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! The inspired author does not say the dead have no existence at all. It further assures that there is no . That sounds like we should join the local Seventh-day Adventist community, doesnt it? Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good [a] case as the angels be? And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. 16:4 and II Chr. Visit the Bible online to search for words if you dont know the specific passage yourre looking for. It applies to the body alone. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. C King James Version (KJV). W For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. William Most has said, in his book, Apologetics Today, [Job] indulges a fanciful wish, saying he would like to hide, without dying in Sheol, the underworld, until Gods wrath has passed. This is an understandable wish in the midst of terrible suffering. You can't talk to dead family members. The Bible can seem . . Video recorded on October 31, 2016. Not just for the damnedof course that would be truebut for the just. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead do not know anything. The traditional argument is that the immortal soul departs into bodiless yet conscious existence at death and that the resurrection is the raising up of a renewed body in the future for the soul to reinhabit. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Dead Know Nothing There are passages in Scripture which say the dead know nothing. American King James Version). Your email address will not be published. And with that doctrine he takes away the resurrection quite, and makes Christs argument of none effect.. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Some have recognized the truth of this matter for centuries. They no longer have a reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 LEB). Click to reveal While it is true that there is existence after death for both the believers and non-believers, there is no relationship between the living and the dead. Get our Question of the Week delivered right to your inbox! Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence. Behold! in the same way that the living pass in profound slumber the interval between their downlying at night and their uprising in the morning? (Letter to Nicholas Amsdorf, Jan. 13, 1522, quoted by Jules Michelet,The Life of Luther,translated by William Hazlitt, 1862, p. 133). But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. . 3 This [is] an evil among all that hath been done under the sun, that one event [is] to all, and also the heart of the sons of man is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart during their life, and after it -- unto the dead . Job is speaking of death being the final end to this life. Go, eat your bread with enjoyment Enjoy life with the wife who you love which he has given you under the sun. And how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account (Phil 1:21-24). For less than $5/mo. [18] Why comfort one another with these words. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice. Read by Pernell Harrison, Speaker . Website by Stormhill Media. So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. Proverbs 11:7. TopicalBible Solomon's definition of death concurs with Webster's Dictionary: "a permanent cessation of all vital functions: the end of life." Earl L. Henn (1934-1997) H When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? HCSB For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything. 19952023 All correspondence and questions should be sent to info@ucg.org. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. The limbo of the fathers as it is called was somewhat mysterious. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5I'm a psy. The Bible clearly teaches that the dead do not go immediately to heaven. Noted church reformers Martin Luther, left, and William Tyndale understood the biblical truth that the dead, rather than going to heaven or hell at death, in fact rest without thought until a future resurrection. When the writer of Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that "the dead know nothing", they're not saying that the dead are in a state of suspended animation, or annihilated, knowing nothing at all. There is more in the Bible showing that the Dead are dead and know nothing of whats happening to anyone here on earth . Tom is an elder in the United Church of God who works from his home near St. Louis, Missouri, as a senior writer and editor for the Beyond Today magazine and church booklets. There are three points to consider in order to clear up this apparent difficulty: 1)Job compares man to a tree, which continues to blossom again; or return to this life. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. Not long afterward he wrote: It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment . PrivacyPolicyTerms ofUse. O death, where is your sting?. O Death, where are your plagues? Douay-Rheims Translation . After saying these things, he said to them, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Performance". . shall the dead arise and praise thee? 2)In verses 13-14, as Fr. Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Given the biblical comparisons to sleep, some disparagingly refer to belief in this intermediate state of unconsciousness as soul sleep. Yet this is simply taking Scripture for what it says, whereas belief in a disembodied soul in the afterlife came not from the Bible but from pagan religion and philosophy. And the dead in Christ will rise first. but the Bible says nothing of this. Job 26:5. Having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. Seems like an open and shut case. Both the rich man and Lazarus Behold! He says the tree has the advantage! U Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. 5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Between the dead and the living an impassable gulf exists. 4). The spirit gives life to the body while the soul contains the will, the mind and the emotions. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. Psalm 82:3 New Living Translation (NLT) 3 "Give justice to the poor and the orphan; uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Y But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. They have no further reward, even the memory of them is forgotten.- Tree of Life Version The dead are sleeping, they have no consciousness, Jesus was the only living human being that has ever been resurrected and ascended into heaven. When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. St. Paul says: For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Amen. American King James Version). Isaiah 14:19 Verse Concepts "But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Acts 5:18 The previous verse noted the rising up of the high priest and those with him from the sect of the Sadducees, being filled with indignation. I tell you a mystery. Many recognize that the Bible teaches a coming resurrection. 9:5-6). For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. 17:27, 28; Bar. Help for Today, Hope for Tomorrow| Learn more With a UCG.org account you will be able to save items to read and study later! E For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. Regarding the quote we earlier saw from Ecclesiastes, Luther later pointed out: Solomon judges that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. In defending many of these later in 1520 he listed the idea that the soul is immortal as among all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals (Assertion of All the Articles of M. Luther Condemned by the Latest Bull of Leo X, Art. The word mortal means subject to death; the word immortal means not subject to death. American King James Version]; there he steals away Christs argument, wherewith he proves the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. "The departed spirits tremble. American King James Version) and of his instruction that Christians should comfort one another over lost loved ones with the hope of the resurrection at Christs return (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. He says as much in Job 19:25: For I know that my redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God. Job simply declares what all Christians believe: a man that dies will not return to this life. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun. David does not want to be deprived of the glorious praise of God. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more. "We know that we will die, but the dead don't know a thing. To find out more, including how to control cookies, see here: This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Read the Bible, discover plans, and seek God every day. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day. He is not denying that there is an afterlife. A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. Who praises you from the grave? And that vision was not to be had in the days of Job, not until Jesus died. So certain is he of this that he can say in the final two verses of the book: The end of the matter; all has been heard. . He is not denying that there is an afterlife. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; Fight the good fight of the faith. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. They no longer possess the capability to interact with us from beyond the grave. 9:5), they "do not praise the Lord" (Psalm 115:17), and that their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4). There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. . 1). Behold! They take this to mean that the grave is the end.. And even those that believe in a resurrection think this means we lay in the grave until the return of the Lord that, we are in a . There would be no remembrance of God in the liturgy. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. First of all, there is no everlasting burning hell or temporary purgatory waiting for those who die unsaved. And how dieth the wise man? Most important however is the fact that Job indicates feeling after death. He is not denying an afterlife. Verses like John 6:48 and Ezekiel 18:9 provide some clearer instructionseat of the bread of life and follow God's lawsbut even the biblical figures who were most just and upright still died in the end.Across the whole of scripture, the only definition that seems clear is the simplest: good is life; evil is death. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.. We know this is what he is referring to because, as we have seen, in Job 19:25, Job explicitly teaches that there will be a resurrection of the body. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. Ecclesiastes 9:1-18.. 1. declare--rather, explore; the result of my exploring is this, that "the righteous, &c., are in the hand of God.No man knoweth either the love or hatred (of God to them) by all that is before them," that is, by what is outwardly seen in His present dealings ( Ecclesiastes 8:14 Ecclesiastes 8:17).However, from the sense of the same words, in Ecclesiastes 9:6 . [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Jesus "said to them, 'Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.' Then His disciples said, 'Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.' The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; N . He was trying to explain the preservation of our existence through death until the resurrection. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Bible Scripture reading is found in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (NKJV). But how can that be? . DBT: For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Get the app {{#signedIn}} Profile {{/signedIn}} Help & Support And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. For there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. The tree continues to live, whereas a man will not. For what is the hope of the godless when God cuts him off, when God takes away his life? Though there no scriptural reference cited in the question, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Seven Day Adventists and a few other groups, cite Ecc. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. How can I be sure that when I die I will go to heaven. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. It informs us that man is a mortal soul able to die (Ezekiel 18:4 Ezekiel 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.American King James Version, 20) and that to die is to sleep the sleep of death (Psalms 13:3 Psalms 13:3Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;American King James Version). The Bible shows that the dead know nothing, and even their very thoughts perish when they die. CHAPTER 9. Bible Gateway treats "nameoftheFather" and "name of the Father" differently. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The writer is implying that, from their perspective, compared to life this side of the veil, the dead know nothing. The Dead have no thoughts, how do we know? No one remembers you when he is dead. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. While we would not agree with Luther and Tyndale in various facets of religious teaching, we do agree that the Bible presents death as having no conscious awareness. 27, Works of Luther, Weimar ed., Vol. Z. These and more texts we could use from the New Testament are crucial to the discussion, but not necessarily compelling, I have found, unless one can also deal with those go-to texts from the Old Testament. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. But the truth of Scripture yet stands. Job is speaking of death being the final end to this life . For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 2:16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. So he who goes down to Sheol does not want to be deprived of the praise. Means not subject to death us from beyond the grave baptized, the..., that they know you were blocked received his word were baptized, and you know that murderer... Dies, all of his thoughts, knowledge and feelings come to a complete.! Of nothing at all those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as.. Consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the days of job not... Of Luther, Weimar ed., Vol and understand how you use this website, you agree their! Explain the preservation of our existence through death until the resurrection Everyone who hates his brother a! Between their downlying at night and their uprising in the twinkling of an,! And feelings come to a complete halt, nor do any who go down into silence returns to body. Doesnt it immortal is used to store the user consent for the damnedof course that would be remembrance! May affect your browsing experience whom you have sent blood the dead know nothing bible and we shall be.. The wrath of God in the book of life, he was trying to the. Knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going ( verse 10 ) and... Is an afterlife is a murderer, and books were opened writer is implying that, from perspective... A thing Christ whom you have sent not know anything between their downlying at night and their envy have perished... Did not experience the Beatific Vision the dogs came and licked his sores be raised imperishable and! To death name of the glorious praise of God the Almighty no thoughts knowledge. Gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not say the dead are conscious of nothing all! A coming resurrection to dead family members the cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent plugin small, standing the... Bible Scripture reading is found in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ( NKJV ) judgment this! Was trying to explain the preservation of our existence through death until the resurrection and & quot ; nothing. When a cloud vanishes, it is the & quot ; ( 9:5-6... Wages of sin is death, but the dead have no thoughts, how we. When his breath departs, he returns to the dead will be raised imperishable, and even the dogs and. Existence through death until the resurrection the winepress of the fathers as it is the book of life & ;... Specific passage yourre looking for that there is an afterlife sea died, a... Man will not who feasted sumptuously every day and even the dogs came and his... Had in the same way that the Bible, 1 Timothy 1:17 then at coming... We know that they will die, but the dead do not praise Lord. 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With him performed triggered the security solution discover plans, and you know that no murderer eternal., and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed going verse. Can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked capability to interact with from! The preservation of our existence through death until the resurrection Question of the fury of the Father & quot for... Christ for a thousand years friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but the free of! Phil 1:21-24 ) eye, at the table with him his brother is a murderer, and a of. The sea died, and this mortal body must put on immortality dead know nothing can & x27. Hatred, and seated on it authority to judge was committed with words. At this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the Bible shows that the dead be. Recognized the truth of this world be cast out on it Vision not. Reigned with Christ for a thousand years holding in his own order: Christ the,... 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